RANT: ObamaCare “death panels”



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FOX NEWS INSIDER – There is more proof that the ObamaCare “death panels” are alive and well. The former head of the Democratic Party, who also happens to be a medical doctor, is sounding the alarm. In a Wall Street Journal opinion piece, Howard Dean calls out a “major problem” with the health care law, known as the Independent Payment Advisory Board. Sarah Palin, who warned against death panels in 2010, reacted on Tuesday night’s Hannity.

Sean Hannity broke down why this is important. First, a high-profile Democrat and one-time medical doctor is admitting that this board is a “health care rationing body.” Second, he pointed out that Dean is acknowledging that IPAB has the authority to “stop certain treatments.”

Finally, Hannity said it serves as another frightening reminder that the American people were misled by the president and other Democrats, including Dean, about ObamaCare. President Obama stated in 2009, “Every credible person who has looked into it has said there are no so-called death panels – an offensive notion to me and to the American people. These are phony claims meant to divide us.”

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Of course, when “rationing”, there’s a financial incentive to “thin the heard”. Stop paying Medicare, Social Security, and collect the various “death taxes”.

Wake up, Sheeple!

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GOLDBUG: Waiting lists for coins and bars?


Gold buyers forced to go on waiting list
Gold buyers are having to wait up to six weeks for their bars and coins after a price dip led to increased interest.

By Rosie Murray-West3:55PM BST 30 Apr 201358

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Investment company Physical Gold said there were waiting lists of three weeks for some coins, and four to six weeks for gold bars. “Previously all would have been available within a few days,” the company said.
The company said that it had seen a 50pc increase in enquiries about purchasing gold and a 35pc increase in sales, with people buying tax-free gold coins. “We are now starting to experience physical gold shortages,” said Daniel Fisher, CEO of Physical Gold.

“In particular there are waiting times on some gold bars and a real difficulty in obtaining mixed year Sovereigns. “However, many clients are willing to ‘do a deal’ and wait for delivery as they want to secure the current price as they feel it will be higher in the near future.”

*** end quote ***

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Yeah, the price drops on “paper” gold, but premiums (seniorage) on “hard” gold goes up.

Now who doesn’t think the Sheeple and Clovers aren’t being manipulated?

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ECONOMICS: Rebuilding in Flood Zones


Rebuilding in Flood Zones
By Barry Ritholtz – March 10th, 2013, 3:00PM

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Isn’t this the definition of insanity?

And as a taxpayer, why am I on the hook?


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MONEY: Sometimes it’s smart to take the offer?


Don’t Make These Mistakes When Buying Life Insurance

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3. Holding Out for A Better Offer

The most recent and biggest screw up we saw had to do with a 30 year old female applying for a $1 million term policy. After asking all the basic medical conditions, she gave us the impression that she would get approved at a Preferred rate. With her age and the amount she needed, we anticipated her rate to be about $70 per month.

After the initial paramedical exam, they found that her cholesterol was a little on the high side; and not just a little on the high side, high enough where instead of being Preferred she was rated a Standard Table B (essentially that means she was knocked down four table classes). That means her rate went from $70 a month to $162 a month. The insurance company made this offer without requesting her APS, otherwise known at the Attending Physician Statement. Your APS contains your entire medical background. If you have any medical history, then there is a pretty good chance that the life insurance company will request your APS.

*** end quote ***

I’ve been always been a firm adherent to the “take the deal”. Have to bird in the hand; rather than two in that bush over there.

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POLITICAL: The debate is really NOT about “insurance”


A Woman Said
Posted on February 24, 2012

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What follows was part of a discussion on a well known “social media site”.  I copied it because I thought it said a lot about a great divide in our country, the one between two kinds of people, two generations, two different world views, two different cultures.  It was occasioned by the appearance of a cartoon showing the President of these Untied States wearing the clerical robes of a pope.  It was s satirical cartoon designed for strong reactions, and it got them.  People objected to the artist’s robing Obama as the Catholic Pontiff, commented on his support for abortion and his refusal to recognize the conscience rights of Catholics.  Someone, a young woman, wrote:

I find it disturbing, but I’m mostly offended by the commentary it represents. I don’t like Obama, but I don’t find him to be any more “tyrannical” or arrogant than any other President we’ve had. Calling him a Communist really just illuminates one’s complete misunderstanding of communism, and the equation of abortion with the Holocaust as well as the implication that requiring insurance to cover birth control is equal to abortion, just pisses me off.

*** and ***

As for the requirement that private employer’s insurance policies cover contraception – I could go on at length about the necessity of hormonal birth control for many women (such as myself) for entirely NON-birth control related reasons (if I don’t take it, I get terrible cysts due to my endometriosis – cysts that may very well prevent me from getting pregnant in the future when I choose to) – but also that I don’t think an employer, whether or not it’s the Catholic church, should be making the medical decisions of its employees. Removing one area of coverage allows others to be chipped away at – and employers and insurance companies may find it in their interest to lower premiums by not covering many routine [JR: My emphasis.] and/or necessary procedures they chose not to agree with for whatever reason.

*** end quote ***

Stepping out from the pro-choice / pro-life debate for a moment, I’d suggest that we all focus for a moment on the word “routine”. To me that means, “ordinary and predictable”. And, are we talking about “insurance”? Where a bunch of folks with the same random risk profile pool their premiums to be paid out when that fire, flood, or tornado hits. Here we have a lady arguing that we, as a society, should “insure” “oil changes for our cars.” Where is the random disaster in an “oil change”? Went to aa Jiffy Lube / Oil Well / or some such place last week. In and out for under $100 in ½ hour. Now envision if it was insured. Call 1-800-thrid world country, file a report, yada yada. No way that was going to cost under $100 and less than ½ hour. In principle, it’s the same. Forcing “insurance companies” into the position of paying for “routine” stuff is just wrong. So, if this is NOT about “insurance”, then it must be about “politics”, propaganda, and manipulation. So this circles us back to the pro-life / pro-choice debate. Because it’s OBVIOUSLY NOT about “insurance”. imho. ymmv.

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MONEY: “Unemployment Insurance”, a Gooferment scam


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the EU’s much heralded relief for Waterford in the wake of the crystal factory closing down has not worked out the way the workers thought it would.

*** end quote ***

Perhaps, “unemployment compensation” is a scam played on “We, The People” for the benefit of the “caring” politicians and bureaucrats, who need an excuse for a public paycheck.

Why is it that, in the free market, you can buy: car, fire, life, disability, homeowners / renters, and even umbrella insurance? But not “unemployment”???

(Why would anyone insure one’s umbrella?)

The answer is that it’s not a relatively random rare event that hits a pool of people who can pool the risk.

Like “social security insurance”, Obamacare (Which is socialized medicine), Medicare, Medicaid, or FDIC bank insurance, NONE of these is TRUE insurance. These, like “unemployment insurance” are really welfare programs in disguise.

Insurance companies serve several very useful functions: find people for the pool, estimate the risks, collect all the premiums, invest the money so it’s available when needed, investigate claims, and pay off as needed.

All done at a reasonable cost for administrative and profit. When you think in terms of taxes paid versus funds dispense, you have to wonder how much “unemployment insurance” costs. See what is deducted form every paycheck everywhere is no way the true cost. And, when you consider that the bureaucrats are earning hefty salaries with life time benefits and pensions that can be “stuffed” at the end (i.e., bureaucrats work “overtime” in their last years to score an enhanced, often obscene, pension).

Of all the insurances, “life” insurance is the perfect model. Everyone probably wants to share that catastrophic risk. In large populations, the risk is easily estimated. Fraudulent claims are few and far between. Premiums are low by any measure. Especially when bought young.

So, “We, The People” have to resist politicians going into the “insurance” business and embrace the “evil” insurance companies for their ability to cheaply pool our risks.

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RANT: The fall out from Obamacare begins


Some insurers stop writing new coverage for kids
Ahead of requirement to cover kids with medical problems, some insurers drop out
Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar, Associated Press Writer, On Friday July 23, 2010, 8:03 pm EDT

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Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Florida issues about 9,000 to 10,000 new policies a year that only cover children. Vice president Randy Kammer said the company’s experts calculated that guaranteeing coverage for children could raise premiums for other individual policy holders by as much as 20 percent.

“We believe that the majority of people who would buy this policy were going to use it immediately, probably for high cost claims,” said Kammer. “Guaranteed issue means you could technically buy it on the way to the hospital.”

*** end quote ***

Romney care, Obama care, any kind of care … politicians and bureaucrats always make the same mistake — static analysis.

As a fat old white guy injineer, one of the first classes I took was “Static Analysis”. OK tough enough. Immediately followed by “Dynamic Analysis”. Now we let things move. Way way way more difficult.

So to in economics, people react to what is done, or not done, or even what is threatened to be done, and begin to act in their own self-interest. As any reasonable person would do!

That’s why, after the politicians raised the millionaires’ tax in Maryland, suddenly the next year there are a lot less millionaires in Maryland.

Do these politicians and bureaucrats think that they are the only ones who can read the tea eaves, make a plan, and carry it out?

Every beginning hunter learns quickly to lead the target.

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NEWJERSEY: “Pivatize” DMV; just return it to the Insurance Companies


Christie looks to privatize motor vehicle inspections, other services
Friday, July 9, 2010 Last updated: Thursday July 8, 2010, 10:20 PM

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New Jersey would close its centralized car inspection lanes and motorists would pay for their own emissions tests under a sweeping set of recommendations set to be released by the Christie administration today. State parks, psychiatric hospitals and even turnpike toll booths could also be run by private operators, according to the 57-page report on privatization obtained by The Star-Ledger. Preschool classrooms would no longer be built at public expense, state employees would pay for parking and private vendors would dish out food, deliver health care and run education programs behind prison walls.

*** end quote ***

So, now, libertarians in training, pay close attention to another lesson in Gooferment!

Why is the State involved at all in “car inspection”?

Yes, little Johnny, you had your hand up first.

“To steal wealth from the people while forcing them to do what the State wants them to do!”

Verrrry gooood.

Before we had Gooferment car inspections, we people killing themselves deliberately in unsafe cars? Were innocents being killed or injured by unsafe cars? As a matter of fact, if you caused an accident, your lawyer would have to defend that claim in a court. If the plaintiff (i.e., plain “tiff” which is a computer picture format. Funny?) could prove that the defendant’s car was a POS, then the jury would punish plaintiff. And, plantiff’s insurance company. (Do you see where I am going here?)

Fast forward to today. All accidents are “no fault” and the State inspect your car that we all pay for in our taxes.

Who won on that proposition?

Insurance companies (transferring their costs to the taxpayer), politicians (rewarded by the insurance companies while they had contracts and jobs to give their friends), and bureaucrats (who had cushy jobs to earn big bucks and big pensions).

And, “We, The People” get our wealth stolen, while we still have to check our own cars for safety on a regular basis.

(BTW — By The Way — for extra credit, why not take a stab at guessing how the new and used car dealers felt about “mandatory inspections”? Just follow the money and it will all be revealed to you.)

Following along the same logic.

What would happen if “Governor Christie” really wanted to “privatize”?

“My fellow Taxpayers: There’s no reason for the State of New Jersey to be involved in the current auto scam at the behest of the Insurance Companies. So effective <Pick your favorite date. July 4th 2011?> People will be responsible for themselves, their actions, and the consequences of those actions. Good bye ‘no fault’ accidents. Should you have an accident. The police will arrest all involved who can not prove they have adequate in-force insurance. Those arrested will have adequate opportunity to post bond *in the amount of the accident’s cost. I have directed by my Commissioner of Insurance to come up with an easily understood table mapping the number of cars, number of injured, number of killed, and estimated property damage to the bond amount. (In all but the simplest fender benders, it will be in the millions. So if I were you I’d get insurance. Insurance companies, who are recognized by the State as deserving and credit worthy, will be allowed to sell drivers ‘insurance’. Proof of such insurance will be accepted by the police at accidents to be evidence of fiscal responsibility and allow the drivers to proceed without arrest. It will be responsibility of the Insurance company to identify the drivers they insure, the cars then insure, and all processes concerning that. The Gooferment will operate the police and courts as before. OK, now let’s stay safe out there.”

The Taxpayers wouldn’t be subsidizing the Insurance Companies. The politicians and bureaucrats wouldn’t be getting rich off us either.

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NEWJERSEY: We’re number two — in expensive insurance


The 10 Most Expensive States to Insure Your Automobile
by DR WRITER on JUNE 16, 2010

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But then there’s one variable a driver sadly can’t do much to change and that’s geography. Here are the ten states in which it’s most expensive to insure a motor vehicle (Criteria was identical across all states):

District of Columbia – Perhaps due to its #2 spot on the list of worst traffic gridlocks, residents of our nation’s capital can expect to pay an average of $1,140 in insurance premiums each year.

New Jersey – In the Garden State, an annual premium of $1,104 is typical.

*** end quote ***


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RANT: ‘Beach House Bailout’


Is insurance industry next takeover target?
Proposal in Congress puts feds in middle of catastrophe claims
Posted: June 12, 2010 9:10 pm Eastern
By Bob Unruh

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“The ‘Homeowners’ Defense Act,’ H.R. 2555, dubbed the ‘Beach House Bailout,’ requires taxpayers across the country, and in your district, to subsidize insurance for wealthy homeowners along the Florida coastline,” the letter to members of Congress said. “The bill is structured to assist the state of Florida (and to a much smaller extent, California) through federal assistance.”

*** end quote ***

Never mind take over, who wants to subsidize rich people on the Florida coast in mansions?

Let Donald, Rush, and whomever fund their own risks!

As a matter of fact, why is the gooferment involved in “insuring” floods any way?

Can you spell ‘moral hazard’?

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GOVEROTRAGEOUS: End employer-provided health care now


March 21, 2010
A common sense idea regarding health insurance
John Conlin

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End employer-provided health care now. Don’t tax it, end it. Company paid health insurance was never a planned policy. It was a response to temporary and artificial restrictions on wages during World War II. Wage controls were in place and companies discovered another method to compete for employees – company paid health insurance. This was deductible by the business as normal operating expenses, something not offered to the individual. We have lived with this monstrosity ever since.

*** end quote ***

Sounds like a good idea.

Think about it like “life insurance”.

It’s cheap, easy, and lightly regulated to prevent fraud. Even car insurance is better than what we have now. And, my favorite “pet health insurance”.

It’ll become available form credit unions, fraternal organizations, and yes even the AARP!

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RANT: Why wait for a flawed concept?


Where’s the health-care bill?
Posted: October 21, 2009
Joseph Farah is founder, editor and CEO of WND

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After all, who can object to a bill that hasn’t yet been written? When someone objects to provisions of the legislation, you can always say, “That’s not in the bill.” And, of course, you would be right. Nothing’s in the bill. The bill doesn’t exist. It will be written after approval.

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It’s all well and good to say “wait till we see something”, but by then it will be too late. And, I think this may be the watershed event, like during the Vietnam war, that brings the Fat Old White People, (as opposed to the Dead Old White Guys), out to the streets in revolt. The gooferment has steadily eroded our rights, like the DOWG’s feared, and may have actually stepped over the Rubicon. Add to their criminal actions with subprime, GM / Chrysler, takeover the banks, and one and on. Maybe The People will rise up and smite them. Maybe I’m a “tin foil hat”, but I think it’s going to get messy. Perhaps, even worse. That’s why I don’t think we can wait to see the bill. The bill really doesn’t matter. It’s the whole concept that is flawed.

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MONEY: “pension plans” an idea that’s time has passed


JCP&L denies full pension to former employee’s widow
by Karin Price Mueller/The Star-Ledger
Monday April 06, 2009, 9:00 PM

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How much is 17 hours of your life worth? It’s a question widow Brenda Slutter has been wrestling with for years.

Her husband, Ron Slutter, worked for Jersey Central Power & Light (JCP&L) for nearly 36 years. He died of cancer at age 58. Knowing his death was imminent, Ron made arrangements to retire, a move that would allow his wife to receive the largest possible company pension benefit after his death. He was told by JCP&L, his widow said, that his official retirement date had to be on the first of the month — but died 17 hours and 40 minutes before the paperwork was finalized.

Thanks to a tangle of bureaucratic rigidity, legal fine print and the timing of her husband’s death, Brenda, 59, receives only half the pension benefit her husband meant for her to receive.

“If January only had 30 days, he would have made it,” Brenda said.

*** and ***

Bamboozled contacted JCP&L to talk about the case, but the company wouldn’t discuss any particulars.

“We respect the privacy of all of our employees and do not publicly discuss or disclose any personal information,” said Ronald Morano, spokesman for First Energy, the parent company of JCP&L. “We work diligently to ensure that our employees and their families understand their benefits and the options available to them.”

*** and ***

Brenda Slutter isn’t surprised by the company’s response, and she’s not giving up her fight.

“This is not how you reward someone for doing an excellent service for your company,” she said. “I guess First Energy needs half of my husband’s pension more than I do.”

*** end quote ***

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Argh! May I suggest that the various state and federal agencies be prompted to audit the JCP&L and it’s pension plan? Tell me that retirement dates haven’t been adjusted for the executives.

This brings me to why do we have pension plans at all. People should be paid out for their full worth and allowed to make their own arrangements.

It’s a shame to see anyone get screwed.

Pensions and “benefits” came about as a result of the gooferment’s wage and price controls of WW2. Does anyone think we still need the distortion?

Gooferment is the root of all evil.

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MONEY: Insurance and employment considering the meltdown

Unfortunately, most people get their health and life insurance via their employer.

That presents a problem when you get nuked (i.e., fired, laid off, or quit).

Health insurance is expensive. Hospital bills are catastrophic.

If you have the opportunity, it may be worthwhile to pick up a catastrophic health insurance policy on your own or through a group. Fraternal organizations have such; as do groups such as Independent Consulting organizations.

Money well spent.

Also life insurance. But that is much cheaper and easier.

Now, with respect to life insurance, it’s always better to have one policy than two. The setup fee is wasted. But, I’m going to suggest that you rethink that strategy. ESPECIALLY if life insurance is very important to your family. (Two earner family with children or One earner family with children.)

You may wish to have TWO life insurance policies with DIFFERENT insurers, despite the added cost.

We haven’t seen the current subprime creditmeltdown financial mess hit the Insurance Companies. … … Yet?

By having two policies, you’ll have two ticket in that sweepstakes.

Life insurance is cheap. (Minimal gooferment regulation!)

Health insurance isn’t. (Lot’s of gooferment “help” there!) But, going “naked” is potentially disastrous.

Suggest an insurance review NOW!

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Remember the news reports that 9 out of 10 financial professionals at Cantor Fitzgerald had no life insurance? And, 9/11 happened. I remember my grandparents saying: “A family man, who dies without life insurance, doesn’t die, he absconds.” Big word for them “absconds”. But they were surprising folks. It’s a true then as it is now.

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NATIONAL: Expansion Of SCHIP Passes


Expansion Of SCHIP Passes, Millions Of Kids Get Health Insurance
February 1, 2009

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The Senate has agreed with the House and has approved an expansion of the State Children’s Health Insurance Program (SCHIP), supplying millions of low-income children with health insurance.<br /> ….Washington (dbTechno) – The Senate has agreed with the House and has approved an expansion of the State Children’s Health Insurance Program (SCHIP), supplying millions of low-income children with health insurance.

*** end quote ***

While on the surface this seems that it’s a “great idea”, however let’s look at the “silent victim”. The taxpayer. We are getting hammered all over the place.

Is it efficient to send money to Washington in taxes? After all they take half for handling to send it to the states, the states “handle” it, and “distribute” it. What the “load” or losses do to friction of all those hands.

Is it effective to “insure” children in this manner? It’s not MY problem that parents haven’t provided for their children. I am taxed to educate them even though I had no part in the decision to have them or anything else. I’m not taxed to feed them. YET? Is that next?


And, we are sending a message to parents that they can’t take care of their own children without the gooferment. What happens when the choices conflict? You know they will. And, the queues for service and reimbursement?


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SERVICE: Cell phone transforms into a personal security device


My Mobile Witness, a groundbreaking new cell phone service that turns your cell phone into a personal security device. My Mobile Witness stores photos or text and warehouses the information for use only by law enforcement authorities. The breakthrough technology is fast and simple to use: an individual takes a photo or creates a text message and sends it to their individual account where it is stored in the My Mobile Witness digital vault. The photo is time-stamped and stored on a site accessible only to law enforcement officials who have limited “active case” or subpoena access to the information when the images may be relevant. Think about getting that license plate of the hit-and-run you just saw.

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I think about the youngsters meeting in a bar. Their wingman can take serendipity pics to establish exactly who they were leaving with.

May sound crude. Maybe I’ve seen too many “Law And Orders” episodes. But makes sense to me.

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POLITICAL: Despise Health Insurance Companies? Just wait!


Simple Indeed, or The Audacity of Cluelessness
Submitted by Brandon Berg on Tue, 2008-12-23 21:52

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The International Herald Tribune showcases the astonishing cluelessness of people who are presumably among the best and brightest of Obama’s supporters:

   When a dozen consumers gathered over the weekend to discuss health care at the behest of President-elect Barack Obama, they quickly agreed on one point: they despise health insurance companies.

   They also agreed that health care was a right; that insurance should cover “everything,” not just some services; and that coverage should be readily available from the government, as well as from employers.

   “We have to keep the momentum going,” said Hijane, 34, who was a volunteer in the Obama campaign and is active in women’s health advocacy. “We are not lobbyists. We are simple citizens.”

*** end quote ***

Get ready for national health care. Delays, Higher Costs, Rationing, and … … yes, sadly, deaths.

That’s what happens when the Socialists take over.


Need a new category … STUPIDITY!

Anyone want to start an insurance company? No. Me neither!

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POLITICIAL: Health Care is NOT a right


The health care mess: Functioning in the belly of the beast
Liberty For All
by Roderick T. Beaman

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“With Barack Obama’s presidency, the clamor for some type of universal medical coverage system is on a crescendo. The cry today is for a ‘single payer system.’ That type of system is a monopsony, where there is but one buyer for a good or a service, as opposed to a monopoly where there is but one seller. It was Pres. Harry Truman who first proposed government-funded health care service for Social Security recipients. It was a corner piece of John F. Kennedy’s presidential platform in 1960.” (12/23/08)

*** end quote ***

In college, I was forced to take courses unrelated to injineering. In Economics, we were taught surprisingly that there were “viewpoints”. I remember one lesson, the prof was teach about “elastic and inelastic” demand curves. (Simple versus “Field Theory” curves and equations) He had many examples of elastic demands (cars, food, money) and only one of inelastic.

Medical care.

No matter what the supply, what the price, demand was infinite.

The only cure was some type of rationing.

In the “old days” of my Mom’s generation, I remember my appendix operation. There were bills. Doc, Hospital, Surgeon, Gas passer, and Surgical Operating Room. My Mom had insurance but it was different then. She paid all the bills, assembled a big folder, and submitted it to the insurance company. They paid 80% of the total. It was very complicated.

She had limited choice since it was an emergency. But, whenever there was a choice, she was a price conscious shopper.

Today, no one shops. They just demand.

That’s what’s wrong!

Health care isn’t a right. Rights are negatives. If it’s a positive, then someone else is OBLIGATED to provide it.

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POLITICAL: Make “health insurance” personal!


DECEMBER 6, 2008, 11:16 A.M. ET

For Workers, Medical Bills Add to Pain as Firms Fail

*** begin quote ***

In May, Jevic Transportation, a New Jersey trucking company owned by buyout firm Sun Capital Partners Inc., told employees in a letter that it was shutting down and terminating insurance. “Continuation of these plans via Cobra is not an option since Jevic no longer provides any group health plan to any employee,” a human resources official wrote.

*** and ***

Until the company shut down, Archway had deducted health contributions from employees’ paychecks. The contributions, along with the employers’ share, go into a pool that funded Archway’s insurance plan. Blue Cross and Blue Shield was the administrator of the plan, so employees and doctors would file claims with the insurance firm, which would determine if they were valid and then pay them. Archway would then repay the insurer. Typically, this process could take a couple months to complete.

*** end quote ***

Another argument for the gooferment to make health insurance deductible to the ordinary taxpayer as it is for employers.

Time to stop the fraudsters.

The Archway example sure was “deceptive”. imho

Time to have a paradigm shift.

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POLITICAL: FDIC Insurance higher?


Obama Proposes Increasing Federal Deposit Insurance to $250,000 Nadine Elsibai 1 hour, 58 minutes ago

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Sept. 30 (Bloomberg) — Barack Obama, the Democratic presidential nominee, today proposed increasing the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. limit to $250,000 from the current level of $100,000.

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Sorry, I disagree. The taxpayer is not supposed to be an insurance company. The limit when it was raised led to the Savings & Loan problem. There’s no reason in today’s marketplace to have FDIC Insurance at 100k. I can understand wanting to protect small savers. But let them use Treasury Bills, just like the big boys. In the “old days” those were not available to the  little people. They are now!

No, no need for a larger FDIC, unless you want to insulate the bankers.

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